how can anyone go through life in this country without an id? cash a check? anything? so vote and need an id, great you should need one.

How is this common sense. Now fraud can run amuck. Do you go to the doctor? They ask for ID, Do you drink? They ask for ID. Do you fly or smoke? They ask for ID. Only liberal morons agree with this. The only reason NOT TO have ID is FRAUD.

And Ellie has called anyone that is a liberal a moron.

We really value your opinion now, Ellie. Tell us more!

James - I've posted below that Republicans are not stupid.

Ralph's opinion = Ellie's opinion

I agree this isn't common sense and I hope that they appeal it to the Supreme Court. Just last night on the Evening news they were talking about Voters Fraud (Democrats). and we need this law in place now.

cc - Last night on the news they also discussed the voter registration fraud done on behalf of the Republican party.

Given that voter ID fraud is just about non-existent, that the price of voter ID when voter ID is already checked, and that the stupid, corrupt, republicans pulled this garbage to try to get Romney and Ryan unfairly elected (corruption!!!) by denying the vote to those who would likely vote sensibly for President Obama, the voter ID law is a bunch of corrupt nonsense. And this isn't a whimper, dingbat, it's anger at a party that's gone south of anything reasonably decent!

I guess you don't read much. It's NOT a change but back to the way it was BEFORE this new voter law. The change was perpetrated by Republicans to discourage voting by the young, poor and elderly, who tend to vote for Democrats.

Hey Fred Freitag How do you think Al Franken won? Pay attention.

Really harsh to call people stupid because they did not go for a change without their vote on it! The people had nothing to do with the change. The change was coming from the GOP.
I actually believe in ID's to vote because an ID will also protect a person. But why wasn't this put on the books until the year of a presidential vote? And why were we told we could get it done for free? I have used an ID for years and it just so happened that 2012 was my year to re-new it. No one offered a free one. It was $13. It is sad but for many people $13. is a lot of money. I hope this is worked out in the next year with the "people" being involved. Paying money to vote is illegal ! True ID's should be free

Ralph - Republicans are not stupid

You don't have a constitutionally protected right to cash a check though, while voting is the most basic constitutional right we have. Therefore if the matter is eventually taken to the SCOTUS, it will judge the law under strict scrutiny, meaning the government will need to prove it has a compelling interest in infringing upon the right. That will be very difficult to prove considering there is almost no voter fraud that would be stopped by voter ID laws.
So the basic argument is that if the government is going to curb our most basic right it has to have a clear reason that would demonstrably benefit the voters more than it would disenfranchise them. Voter registration laws are an example of a law that has those qualities. I don't think Voter ID is.

maryanne,
this is no change, it is stopping the change in rules.
If you believe for some reason that voting without showing ID is a problem, then why were you not complaining when GWB was twice elected without the need for PA voters to show any photo IDs at the polls?

Spot on explanation Dannyboy!

I guess the people that think it's unfair to require ID for voting think that one shouldn't be required to by alcohol, open a bank account, etc., right?...

The answer will undoubtedly be "no."

It's sad that people think ensuring a fair vote is less important than carding a kid trying to but a six pack...

"The change was perpetrated by Republicans to discourage voting by the young, poor and elderly, who tend to vote for Democrats."

Do you have anything to prove this statement, Fred?

Why is everyone under the impression that only people who would vote for democrats don't have ID's. Isn't that saying something on how people think? Also if they can't make it to go get the FREE ID being offered everywhere, what makes you think they would be able to make it to the polls on voting day. I vote to call it even, half would vote for Romney & half for Obama. End of discussion

What a spin on reality. It means the only way Romney can win is by voter supression. I have to say that Faux News followers are the as loyal as any puppy I have known in my lifetime. Can't say they are as smart as them though.

I guess you obviously just don't understand Robert. There has been NO voter fraud in PA - there was an ulterior purpose behind the new law which was to prevent voting.

"I guess you obviously just don't understand Robert. There has been NO voter fraud in PA - there was an ulterior purpose behind the new law which was to prevent voting."

Do you have any facts to back that statement up with, Fred?

Ed M- any facts to back it up? How many cases of voter fraud have been taken to the courts in Pennsylvania?? It's a non-existent problem, that according to Turzai himself- is to help get Romney elected.

I don't know how many have been taken to court Lori. I'm not the one making the claim.

Yes, none.

Not that anyone has come across....but how do we know?

Ditto Bob!!

Your paranoia is showing, along with your lack of facts.

Acorn disbanded two years ago, even after several rulilngs that they did nothing illegal. Breitbart got his wish and you sheep continue to believe everything you're told by the far right.

You might want to check out the current voter registration fraud accusations against a Republican backed organization in Florida. Sorry, you probably haven't heard about this on Fox.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/voter-registration-fraud-gop-backed-firm-spreads/story?id=17370445

Once again, a conservative confusing voter registration fraud, like what republicans are doing in Florida and South Carolina as I write, with in-person voter fraud, which literally does not exist in PA. Registering fake people to vote does not constitute voter fraud, unless the "fake" people actually show up at the polls.

Does it really matter whether or not it's Republican or Democratic based fraud? What's important is that fraud IS in fact happening, and this story is just one example. That's the lesson to be learned from that story!

What is the most important civil thing we as a citizen can do? It is to VOTE, and through that process provide people to represent us, and create a government "of the people, by the people, and for the people". What I don't understand is why protecting the sanctity of this process is seemingly not important?

If presenting an ID is not a good way to do this, then let's come up with a better one? We are a smart and creative people, we should be able to solve this problem.

We may not get it right the first time, but doing nothing just leaves the door open to actual voter fraud that IS in fact occurring whether or not you choose to believe it or not.

I think that every person has the right to vote, and should not be in any way prevented from doing so, but that doesn't mean that right (or any right) doesn't require some effort on the person to exercise it, or protect it.

I believe, that walking into a polling place without any one validating I am who I say I am, feels to me like that right is not being protected.

Thanks, Zeitgeist, athought I'd have to explain that to proud American again.

Same group a different name ACORN is now Affordable Housing Center of America same employees and tax ID number. They have also been working with the occupied wall street movement

What is to stop a a fake registration person from showing up at the polls to vote Voter ID

Lou- it's not a small thing for many people on the fringes (patients in nursing homes or with limited mobility, homeless, etc...). Just because they are involved in mainstream society, does not mean they're less entitled to vote.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/voter-id-vote/story?id=17206253#.UGwkvE3A-PA

How many of these people vote now, Lori?

Really, Tax Payer II, don't dare leave home without it? What's next, ID numbers tatooed on our arms?

"people of color"? Age i could possibly see but race? come on. thats a cop out

The was it was done was obviously an attempt to keep certain people away from the polls. Anybody with half a brain knows that.
Now, that being said, I see nothing wrong with having to present a proper I.D. in order to vote, but don't try to rush it through simply in order to defeat a certain candidate, which is exactly whay this is all about.
In another four years...or even less, with proper planning, it might not be such a bad idea.

John Spoon
11:45 am on Tuesday, October 2, 2012
"people of color"? Age i could possibly see but race? come on. thats a cop out
------------------------Actually, Blacks are among the most likely to be affected according to numerous news sources.

Alex, why do you think people of color and elderly wouldn't have an ID? If they don't have one, they had (and still have) plenty of time to acquire an ID free of charge from at any PennDOT Driver License Center.

Maybe I'm just uneducated, and don't understand, and I'm willing to learn.

I've had to pull out my ID just to buy something at a store, visit the welfare office, visit any government agency for that matter, to get medical attention (even the dentist), and many other places... I have a voter's ID card (as does every registered voter) but they don't even ask for that!

The list of acceptable IDs for this new law is pretty large. I find it hard to believe that anyone couldn't find a way to get one of these IDs, if they don't already have one:
-- Photo IDs issued by the U.S. Federal Government or the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
-- PA Driver’s License or Non-driver’s License photo ID
-- Valid U.S. passport
-- U.S. military ID- active duty and retired military
-- Employee photo ID issued by Federal, PA, PA County or PA Municipal government
-- Photo ID from an accredited PA public or private institution of higher learning, including colleges, universities, seminaries, community colleges and other two-year colleges
-- Photo ID issued by a PA care facility, including long-term care facilities, assisted living residences or personal care homes

John Spoon,
In Philadelphia, a Democratic stronghold, 44 percent of the population is African-American; voters who live in the the city’s most heavily African American census tracts are 85 % more likely to lack a valid ID than a voter who lives in a predominantly white area.Voters who live in heavily Hispanic areas, are 108 % more likely to lack the specified ID than those in white neighborhoods

"This was an obvious attempt by the Pa. GOP to make it extremely difficult for many eldersly, poor and people of color to vote."

Let's see..... most poor people have photo ID's since they need them to get welfare benefits. Most elderly have photo ID's for the same reason. I have no idea what people of color has to do with this.

@Lou you say that people have "plenty of time to acquire an ID free of charge from at any PennDOT Driver License Center." Have you been to one of these centers? Speed is not one of their qualities and they are not equipped to handle any overflow. Plus, you are assuming everyone who may need one can easily hop in their car and get one. The folks that will be effected by this are the very same ones who don't have a car nor the money to pay the fee. Imagine expecting an elderly person to take several buses, then wait at a center for possibly over an hour, then travel back home, all for an ID? If someone doesn't have a car, why would they need a licence? If they are not a student or in the military, again, no ID. If you don't have the money for a car or school, i doubt you are planning on vacationing anytime soon outside the country, so no passport. And only so many people can work the the state, so if you aren't one of them, out of luck with an ID.
I agree that folks should have some sort of ID to vote, i am not against it at all, but i don't think the law should take affect in a presidential election year. We've had decades and decades to put this in affect, why the rush now. Voter fraud isn't rampant. But using it as an excuse to prevent folks from voting is no different than a poll tax. Give folks a chance to get an ID. After election day this year, they will have 4 years to get it. A true "plenty of time" to save up for the ID and get to a location.

B-W Proud - Voter fraud was not at an all time high when President Obama was elected.

How high was it when GWB was elected?

I agree, excuses, laziness, ignorance ...............

Brad - Don't you mean it is a moot point?

Doreen - And you probably will never understand. Don't worry about it.

Agree!!! you have to show ID to buy ciggarettes, to fly, to drink... but not to vote for who is going to run the country????? and really......how exactly is this a ploy to affect democratic voters? why would they not be able to get IDs?? i know that i do not want dead people and non-citizens voting for my president!

Amos - Instead of ID how about a spelling and grammar test before you're allowed to vote?

I really don't understand what the big deal is about showing a photo id! for election and or anythings else.
```````````````

that would be because you happen to have one of the ones they will accept, Doreen.

Then how about you educate us, Mike, and give us the facts as to why having to prove who you are to vote is a bad thing.

Where does it state rights have to be convenient?

Please read those "links" I supplied and you might understand the problem. This has nothing to do with food stamps or other government aid!!

Susan M - You're painting with an awfully broad brush.

Can I make the assumption that you're a white old man that owns an excessive amount of firearms and is a hedge fund manager?

My POINT IS: this is just another excuse to help perpetuate voter fraud. It isn't that difficult to get an ID. I hate the excuses...lame....if I was a guardian of a 90 year old person, I would have had that ID 5 x by now. Just get it done.

Susan M - if you were guardian to a 90 year old then they would be lucky. Many 90 year olds don't have guardians. Are they lazy?

Yea now they can take the mental patients to vote again. DON'T TELL me different. They used to take them out of Mayview with the name written on their hands. They take them from old age homes also. I KNOW BECAUSE I SAW IT FIRST HAND AND WORKED THERE.

Ellie - Are you saying that hospital patients don't have a right to vote?

In this day and age there are many options for help to get whatever you need, verbal, phone, web and places etc.........

This is not true, Susan. A large population of voters with every right to vote as you live in assisted living facilities and can no longer drive, or didn't ever drive. They may not have valid driver's licenses, which may have been their only photo ID. Such places can provide a photo ID, this all came about so quickly that they have not been able to manage it with all the other duties these usually understaffed facilities must perform. A great number of the elderly in the state would not be able to vote. Delaying this until after the election is the only way to make sure this election is fair. If Romney needs to win through underhanded tactics, then he should not be president.

*hi5*

Imagine how much would get done if people quit whining they can't do something and make an effort to get what they need to do what they want. Naw, we want to have everything done for us because we're entitled to. No wonder people think Americans are lazy, read these comments and you'll see more excuses than actions. I'm proud to prove who I am when I vote.

There is a polling place in every precinct, and many people can walk to their polling places or catch a ride with a neighbor. But to get to the much smaller number of PennDOT license centers is a real hardship for many people. How often do you have to ride a bus, Brad?

proud American - That is complete nonsense.

Just because you desperately want something to be true doesn't make it true.

Read the Observer-Peporter today mike page A-9 PENALTIES PROMPT EXTRA ATTENTION (MEDICARE FINES OVER HOSPITALS' READMITTED PATIENTS) also on the morning news with doctors talking about what it means to them and patients and how it will affect the way their illness is handled. Any one of these illness can be a complications issue anyone with heart failure has a problem with pneumonia and may need hospitilized more then once in 30 days as an example. We needed to make sure this election was as fair as possible and voter id was made a republican-democrate issue not a fair election issue. If a democratic governor had passed this law when a republican pesident was trying to get relected these comments would be the other way around.

These new Medicare regulations are designed to help and protect elderly people, not to attack them or to get between them and their physicians. Hospitals who accept Medicare funding will have to deliver higher quality care to prevent complications that result in readmission within 30 days. The selection of health conditions covered by this new regulation is based on findings that complications can be prevented by delivering care that is based on sound scientific evidence instead of tradition or physician and hospital preference. This is better for ALL of us--Medicare beneficiaries as well as those of us who pay into the system in the form of taxes and who also pay for our own health care. When Medicare leads the way, health care costs can be controlled on a big scale. Isn't that what health care financing reform is all about?

The best care can be delivered and an elderly person can end up returning to the hospital multiple times in a 30 day period. This regulation was designed to penalize, nothing else. The government has it's hands in may too much of our personal lives.

Kathleen you tell me how this is helping patients? If the hospitals are going to be punished and fined for a patient being readmitted they won't be admitted again in the 30 day period they will give them medicine and send them home. All of the illness that are listed in elderly patients usually are chronic no matter how good the care is. You take someone with congestive heart failure they can be fine on monday and gasping for breathe on friday that is part of their condition not poor hospital care. This is just another way to pay for Obama care and is an attack on the elderly getting the best possible care. Government needs to get out of the health care business and my personal care it is between me and my doctor.

What hardship? How is this common sense. Now fraud can run amuck. Do you go to the doctor? They ask for ID, Do you drink? They ask for ID. Do you fly or smoke? They ask for ID. Do you get Social Security or welfare? They ask for ID. Only liberal morons agree with this. The only reason NOT TO have ID is FRAUD.

Name calling just weakens your opinion, Ellie.

What undue hardship? You have to show photo ID to buy alcohol, cigarettes and some meds. Is that also a hardship?

B-W Proud: Strategic Allied Consultants

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/voter-registration-fraud-gop-backed-firm-spreads/story?id=17370445

See above comment by me - It was found that Acorn did nothing illegal, lost their funding and disbanded 2 years ago. Their true crime - registering minorities and the poor to vote. At least that's a crime in certain facets of the right wing.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/06/15/preliminary-report-clears-acorn/

Find a new boogieman

Current group committing voter registration fraud - a Republican backed group in Florida -
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/voter-registration-fraud-gop-backed-firm-spreads/story?id=17370445

Amen to that...tell it like it is,Sunny!!!

Because no need for a scandle the group doing the wrong was fired.

Indeed, Bob, it is very telling.
but not surprising.

Oh, THEY know about it all right.

Ellie, i don't even know what to say lol...You are definately in another world and have expressed no interest in Enlightenment. Are you sure you just Worked at Mayview? Your lack of compassion is astounding. I hope you are retired.

The excuse? Because requiring ID to vote is an infringement upon our rights as citizens.

You want to know why a whole lot of people in your community disagree with you. There is the reason.

How is it an infringement on our rights, Mike? How would you feel if you went to the polls to vote and found out you already did?

Mike,

Just the opposite, our rights are infringed upon by allowing people to vote who don't have the right. Note the people who protest and their motives.

Ed M and Peggy - You want to know why people are disagreeing with you and I told you.

Mike,

That's Peggie (with an ie). Little details can mean a lot.

You told us nothing, Mike, except you opinion. Facts, please.

Ed M - Peggie wanted to know what the excuse was for people that disagree with her.
I gave her the popular opinion of people who disagree with her opinion.

That's called an opinion.

Opinions are personal beliefs that drive how people feel about certain issues.

Can you provide facts as to why your favorite color is your favorite color?
Can you provide facts to back up your opinion regarding Coca-Cola Classic vs New Coke?

Do you now understand the concept of an opinion?

Mike,
I never asked why people are disagreeing with me. I asked "How is it an infringement on our rights, Mike? How would you feel if you went to the polls to vote and found out you already did?"

Care to answer?

Ed M - You barged in on a discourse between Peggie and myself.

You know that you and I don't see eye to eye on this issue, amongst many others.

Why are you seeking me out and banging your head against a wall asking a pointless question like that. A question in which you already know my answer.

Sheri, you make too much sense for some here, and the rest of us already knew this.
:-)

If you would like to reg. as a new voter you can't get the card until you prove registration. But you can't reg. to vote if you do not have id.
`````````````

catch 22, eh?

Kevin - People who disagree with you are not morons.

President Obama is not a radical.

We're not all on the "road to hell"

Do you mean that a 90 year old WWII veteran can't vote if they don't pay income tax? I assume you mean income tax because we all pay taxes when we buy things.

kevin, name calling only weakens YOUR opinion.
Express your side without name calling, maybe someone will take you seriously. Otherwise, no.

Bob - Here is why some folks are upset. Imagine if you were not allowed to go to church until you applied for and received your "Church ID" that allowed you to practice your guaranteed right to practice your religion.

Would you feel that wasn't fair?

What's the big deal? If you've got ID then if should be ok.

Bob McKee1:17 pm on Tuesday, October 2, 2012 What's the problem? I'm 66, I've lived in Pennsylvania all my life and have had a photo ID since I was 16. Doesn't everyone?

No, Bob, everyone doesn't have one of the specifically listed forms of PHOTO ID included in this law. What PHOTO ID did you have at age 16? If you are 66, then your PA drivers' license at age 16 did NOT have a photo on it, either. By 21, you may have secured an LCB card though....and your voters registration card, as well.
Which does not have a photo on it.

Nice red herring, Mike. Going to church is not even remotely close to voting. Did you have to show ID the last time you bought certain medication at CVS?

kevin - I'm a veteran and I'm a democrat. Were you in military? Which branch?

Wow...really? Do you have proof that Turzai's goal for the law was specifically to win the state for the GOP? (I'm asking in an ironic way, because I know you certainly can't have "proof" of that) Your next line is just as laughable..."The court was shown this, and agreed" What alternate reality are you living in? There were plenty of reasons for the court to decide what they decided, but to turn it into something that it wasn't is reprehensible. The lengths some people (liberal OR conservative) will go to to make their point is ridiculous. Everything you said was a complete fabrication, and an unintelligent fabrication at that. I'm not saying this law shouldn't have been put on hold, mind you...I'm just saying that you, John Linko, specifically, made a fool out of yourself with that post.

Concerned Citizen
Mike Turzai said it himself and a camera recorded him saying it
Turzai: Voter ID Will Allow Romney to Win Pa.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuOT1bRYdK8

And you'll probably never see the connection. Don't worry about it.

amos, when they have nothing better to say or facts to back them up they resort to personal attacks. Ignore it.

Amos, here's a connection:
http://www.crmvet.org/info/lithome.htm

There is no connection to see, Amos.

That's no connection, NE12Ukid. That's just history. Ya got anything from this century?

I know many that don't have IDs that would allow them to vote. There are literally thousands in PA.

Specifically, in Pennsylvania, nearly 760,000 registered voters, or 9.2 percent of the state's 8.2 million voter base, don't own state-issued ID cards, according to an analysis of state records by the Philadelphia Inquirer. State officials, on the other hand, place this number at between 80,000 and 90,000.

Who in this conversation doesn't have one? Know anyone that doesn't have one that is a legal voter?Nobody? Then what's the argument?

Probably nobody HERE on the internet, but what about the people who are not on the internet, who do not drive, who may not be able to obtain their birth certificate?
Not everyone has the same circumstances, "from a students eyes". If you are a student, learn some history and also some sociology, might open those eyes to things you just didn't realize existed.

NE12Ukid it seems in your examples the problem is not having a valid photo ID.

Tia Sutter - using two names.

Danny Rosa - using two names.

Joyce Block - using two name. Never had anything changed to her married name.

Bea Bookler - lost all her documentation. Based on what was posted would qualify for an absentee ballot which does not require a photo ID.

Dorothy Barksdale - doesn't have a birth certificate.

Gloria Cuttino - doesn't have a birth certificate.

Grover Freeland - doesn't have a birth certificate.

Interesting how people can blame something on someone else because they don't have the proper documentation.

You can easily look up the PA voter ID requirements. However, to simplify the matter for you:

All of these must have an expiration date placed thereon - no expired ID's are acceptable.

a PA department of state ID
a PA driver's license
a Pa non-driver's license ID
a currently valid US passport
a currently valid gov't employee ID
a currently valid PA university ID
a current valid ID from a PA care facility

from a students eyes still asks: And how many of these people without IDs would be unable to get a free one from the state? I don't understand what the issue is.
``````````````

Maybe these few examples will help you UNDERSTAND, student:
Tia Sutter, a former attorney who worked as a Philadelphia assistant district attorney for more than 10 years, is a registered voter who had tried for years to get photo ID. Sutter, 61, doesn't drive and her only photo ID is from when she was a college student in 1978. Her Social Security card is under the name Tia Sutter. Her New York-state birth certificate is under the name Christine Sutter. She has been told that she cannot get a state issued ID because her names don't match. "I thought I knew my legal name," she said. "I'm not sure anymore." To change her name on her SS card, she was told she would need a court order, which would cost $400 and would take months."My roots and my future are all in Pennsylvania," Sutter said, choking up with emotion. "It's hurtful to me that this is now a question of 'papers please.' If your papers aren't in order, you can't vote."

Continues.......

Danny Rosa, 63, of West Chester is the son of a Puerto Rican woman and was born in New York. He doesn't know why his birth certificate identifies him as Danny Guerra, his grandmother's maiden name. But since he was a boy, he has always gone by the surname Rosa, the name of his stepfather who raised him. Rosa was the name on his night school diploma and it was the name on his Air Force honorable discharge certificate, which hangs on a wall in his living room.

"You're proud of that?" plaintiffs' attorney Marian Schneider asked him. "I am proud," he said. "It's about the only thing I ever completed."
A regular voter, he wanted to comply with the new law. So he spent the better part of a day gathering his paperwork and making two trips to the local PennDOT driver's license center where he waited about an hour each time. (He doesn't drive and had to get a ride.) "I showed him (the technician) my birth certificate and he told me my name's no good," Rosa said.
"I served in the service for four years," Rosa said. "I don't do it (vote) just for kicks. It means something special to me. I think it should be important for everybody."
Because the next two plaintiffs were not physically able to make the trip from their homes to Harrisburg, their video depositions were played in court in lieu of testimony.

continues with two more examples.....

Joyce Block, 89, was born in Brooklyn, married in the 1940s. She is Jewish and her marriage certificate is in Hebrew. Her Social Security card and her birth certificate are in her maiden name, "Joyce Altman." She never got a driver's license "because I felt everyone was safer without me on the road."
Since registering to vote when she was 21 - she voted for FDR - she has not missed an election.
In 2010, ill and in the hospital, she was determined she was not going to miss the election and refused to vote by absentee ballot. "I wanted to make sure I voted," she said. "And I carried and carried on until they let me take a wheelchair and I voted."
When she heard about the new law, she had her granddaughter take her to the PennDOT center. She was told that because her Social Security card and birth certificate were in her maiden name, she could not get photo ID. She showed the technician her marriage certificate. He said he couldn't read Hebrew.
Block has a large family and a great support system. She is politically active and complained to her state senator, who called PennDOT. When she returned the next time to the center, there were no problems. But she agreed to be a plaintiff because she wants to make sure that others without such a support system are not disenfranchised.

continues....

Bea Bookler, 94, was born one year before the ratification of the 19th Amendment, guaranteeing American women the right to vote.

Today, she seldom leaves her room at the Devon Senior Living Center. She spends her days reading and watching television.The only times she goes out anymore are on rare and special occasions, when her daughter will take her out for lunch. Also, she goes out twice a year to the election polls, which are next door to her home. Bookler is unsteady and shakes during her testimony and says it's just too hard to get around anymore.
Over the years, she has lost her Social Security card and her birth and marriage certificates. While she could sign a form attesting that she has no identification and be granted a special ID used solely for voting, it would still take a trip to PennDOT, something she is physically unable to do.

"It's too hard," she said. "You can see I'm not exactly mobile. I get dizzy and shaky."

During her testimony, Bookler was asked why, if it's so hard, she bothers to go to the polls. The question seemed to confuse her. "I would never not vote," she said.

"How proud I am to live in a country is a real democracy. And anything that prevents people from voting is taking away our democracy.

"Democracy is only real if we all participate."

So because people are neglectful and don't follow the law (you are supposed to let the government know when you change your name when you get married), we should let them slide? Bea can go to lunch with her daughter and then stop and get her ID, as soon as she gets her new Birth Certificate that is as easy as sending a form into the Vital Statistics office of the town you were born in. Or wait, don't tell me...she doesn't know where she was born!

Bea Bookler, 93, Chester County Ms. Bookler is a Caucasian woman born in Philadelphia in 1918. Graduating from Philadelphia's Overbrook High School at the height of the Depression, Ms. Bookler was forced to get a job to earn money and could not go to college. She worked as a secretary until she married a World War II veteran in 1945. She raised two children and now also has two grandchildren. Ms. Bookler was widowed in 2006 and now lives in an assisted living facility in Devon, Chester County. Ms. Bookler has voted regularly since casting her first ballot for Franklin Roosevelt in 1940. She has now grown frail with age. Going to the polls to vote twice a year is difficult for Ms. Bookler, but it is so important to her that these are two of only a handful of excursions away from her assisted-living facility that she has mustered the energy to take in recent years. Ms. Bookler does not presently have a photo ID acceptable under Pennsylvania's photo ID law. While she has the official documents necessary to get a valid ID from PennDOT, to actually get that ID she must go to the nearest PennDOT Driver's License Center about ten miles from her home. Doing so would require her to arrange transportation and would be an enormous physical hardship. Unfortunately, because she neither has nor can get an ID acceptable under Pennsylvania's voter photo ID law, she will not be able to vote in November, an election she believes may be her last.

Susan M insists: ... she gets her new Birth Certificate that is as easy as sending a form into the Vital Statistics office of the town you were born in. >>>>>>>>

Tell these three voters how easy it is, Susan.
Dorothy Barksdale, 86, born at home by a midwife in rural Halifax County, Virginia in 1926. After Congress passed the Voting Rights Act of 1965, Ms. Barksdale worked as a poll official in Philadelphia. She has not missed voting in a single election since at least 2001.She and her niece have tried for three years to obtain a birth certificate from the state of Virginia, which has advised them that they have no birth record.

continues......

continuing....

Gloria Cuttino, 61, is an African-American woman born in SC. She moved to Philadelphia at a young age. Ms. Cuttino's mother died when she was sixteen, leaving Ms. Cuttino alone to care for her three younger brothers and sisters. Forced by these circumstances to drop out of school, the teenage Ms. Cuttino began working at a commercial laundry to support the family. Ms. Cuttino raised four children, one of whom is a Philadelphia police officer, and now has ten grandchildren. She has over the years worked on behalf of local candidates for elected office.
She has been trying for over one year to get her birth certificate, which she needs to get a ID, from SC, which has told her they have no birth record. She has recently worked with a pro bono lawyer, who has determined that the only way to get a "delayed" birth certificate is to seek census and other records, which will cost approximately $100, and to then employ an attorney in South Carolina to petition the court. Unless enforcement of the photo ID Law is enjoined, Ms. Cuttino will not be able to vote in November.

and finally,
Grover Freeland, 72,is an African-American man born in Buffalo, NY. He is a U.S. Army Veteran who was drafted in 1964 and served two years stateside before being honorably discharged. He graduated with a Bachelor of Arts and a Masters degree from Philadelphia's University of the Arts. He believes that if a person is good enough to put his life on the line in the army then he should be able to vote. His only photo ID card is what is known as a "veterans card," which is issued by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. While it contains encoded information on sensitive matters, like his medical records, the card is not recognized as valid by Pennsylvania's voter photo ID Law.
Mr. Freeland has tried unsuccessfully to retrieve his birth certificate, which he will need to get a photo ID acceptable to vote, from the state of New York. Consequently, come November this veteran of the U.S. Armed Services will be unable to show the requisite identification and will not be able to vote.

You really should read the other posts and links before making a post like that, student eyes.

In politics, the term base refers to a group of voters who almost always support a single party's candidates for elected office. Base voters are very unlikely to vote for the candidate of an opposing party, regardless of the specific views each candidate holds. In the United States, this is typically because high-level candidates must hold the same stances on key issues as a party's base in order to gain the party's nomination and thus be guaranteed ballot access. In the case of legislative elections, base voters often prefer to support their party's candidate against an otherwise appealing opponent in order to strengthen their party's chances of gaining a simple majority - typically the gateway to overarching power - in a legislature. [Wikipedia]

Didn't they already have adequate time? How much time is adequate?

Excellent explanation Stephanie!

oh wait mike, she spelled adequate wrong. ... go on.. attack her!

Haha Amos :)

:-)

Yeah!!!! Let's celebrate that we can't spell properly!

Everybody else is a nerd because they like to cite examples, spell words, put together sentences so that they can be read.

@mike, your behavior is not at all, "grown up." you are in fact, scary!

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

Sexual Chocolate (drops the microphone...)

as i said before, "scary!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJdUXSMi1lo

Actually, if you read the constitution it's not an open ended right to vote. The contsitution gives rights to specific groups of people through a series of amendments. For example, an amendment was needed to specifically give women that are citizens the right to vote. Basically, now you have the right to vote if 1) you are a citizen, and 2) you are 18. So, to exercise your right, you need to supply proof that you meet the criteria. An ID provides that proof.

Good answer Sue T.

That is a really good point Sue T that I was actually making in a two part comment that for some reason is not showing up (though I have the confirmation in my inbox).

Voting is not an explicit right. The problem I have with your explanation is you then say "So, to exercise your right, you need to supply proof that you meet the criteria. An ID provides that proof." But this latter part of the message is not in the constitution and serves as your own justification for the voter id laws which is almost as bad as simply saying "it is my constitutional right to vote." You are now saying, "it is your duty as a citizen to prove that you are a citizen through the specific measures outlined by the state." The constitution does not ban voter regulations, just as the constitution does not justify voter regulations.

ie: The constitution should not really be a part of this conversation. (and neither should a comparison to gun laws and the second amendment which was the subject of my comments that are not showing up...sad...they were really good. :)

that is true Erin, I was trying to make my post short and sweet because I only had a couple of minutes to post. The constitution doesn't specifically say an ID can provide proof or other regulations, but doesn't ban them. It's open-ended leaving it up to the state to both legislate voter regulations and enforce the rights. I'm big into personal responsiblity, and I think if you are going to take the time to educate yourself about the candidates, and get out and take the time to stand in line to vote, that you will also take the personal responsiblity to get an ID. I strongly believe that exercising ones rights in this country doesn't come "free". You need to put some effort in also. The legitimate argument I see here is time frame. Eight months seems sufficient to me, but I don't know the full history (for example how prepared the state was to issue id's 8 months ago).

Yeah, the problem with these terms like "personal responsibility" and "entitlements" is that they become so politicized they take on entirely new meanings. I would say that I am big into personal responsibility as well, but I do not see being required to have photo identification to vote, especially when it has yet to be proven necessary, a part of this political sense of "personal responsibility." I just don't see photo id factoring in under that concept.

Did you read the documents from the PA Supreme Court's decision? I think that it was sufficiently proved that the law was in fact not implemented as planned in eight months. I also don't know that "eight months" is accurate if you are counting from the time PennDot enacted looser requirements to obtain a voter id, and when those looser requirements actually took place. If I remember correctly, that was something like 10 weeks.
I think that this country is entirely too comfortable creating new laws that may be created with the best of intentions (or not) but almost always end up encroaching on someone's rights. I firmly believe that there should be a burden of proof on the proposed law to prove it is absolute necessity. I think in 20-50 years when students are studying the history of this election, they are going to refer to this string of laws as "voter suppression laws" much in the same way we study voter suppression tactics before 1960s or in the late 19th century.

Do you have proof that Turzai's goal for the law was specifically to win the state for the GOP?
```````````````````````````

Turzai said so, that should be proof enough, unless Turzai is just a liar.

Can't believe you never heard about this, CCitizen, it happened back in June.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuOT1bRYdK8

He said it.

Or maybe he IS just a liar?
Mike Turzai, the Republican legislator made headlines in June when HE SAID THE LAW WOULD HELP MITT ROMNEY WIN THE STATE IN NOVEMBER, repeated the falsehood that the state has a history of election fraud."The many election reforms enacted, including voter ID, are aimed to ensure citizens and registered voters have the right to vote and have their vote counted," Turzai said“It is unfortunate, but there has been a history of voter fraud in Pennsylvania," .
As they fought to defend the law in court, state officials conceded that NO ONE had EVER been prosecuted for in-person voter ID fraud and that there was no evidence that it had ever occurred in the state.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/16/pennsylvania-voter-id-law_n_1790844.html

in context:
June 23, Turzai was ticking off list of legislative accomplishments including abortion clinic regulations and passage of Castle Doctrine, saying they happened because GOP controls House, Senate and governor’s office. Then he SAID “Voter ID, which is going to allow Gov. Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania — done.”
http://www.pennlive.com/editorials/index.ssf/2012/07/no_need_for_id_turzais_comment.html

The camera that recorded him saying that was made by liberals

LOL!!

Really Mike????

L Ryba - Can you please refresh everyone's memory by citing the "Philadelphia Black Panther" situation? I've never heard about it

And voter fraud is not present in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.

It's not Mike? OMG....absolutely NO VOTER fraud in Pittsburgh or in Philadelphia? How in the world did you get those stats and who collected them and can verify them?

Susan M - Rush Limbaugh told me. BOW DOWN TO YOUR MASTER

I HATE Rush...UGH!

Susan, during the recent court hearings, state officials conceded that NO ONE had EVER been prosecuted for in-person voter ID fraud and that there was no evidence that it had ever occurred in the state.

They all had their eyes closed.

"during the recent court hearings, state officials conceded that NO ONE had EVER been prosecuted for in-person voter ID fraud and that there was no evidence that it had ever occurred in the state."
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
And how would someone be identified and prosecuted for in-person voter ID fraud? I've never been asked for and ID to vote once since I moved to PA about 20 years ago. You can't find what you don't look for.

Let's see.......ya don't need ID to prove who you are to vote so how would someone be prosecuted for voter fraud?????

proud American - So when was the court case? Was there a civil case to follow up the unsuccesful criminal prosecution?

Also, wikipedia is fine if you want to find out the full name of the Skipper from Gilligan's Island (Jonas Grumby) but you should really not use it for this purpose.

Bill o Reilly rated FALSE by politifact:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jul/23/bill-oreilly/bill-oreilly-blames-obama-administration-not-pursu/

Bipartisan agreement: Fox-hyped New Black Panthers case is a phony scandal
http://mediamatters.org/research/2010/07/17/bipartisan-agreement-fox-hyped-new-black-panthe/167847

if you are going to use wiki, at least include the link so people can read the whole story, not just the first paragraph, and none of the rebuttal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Black_Panther_Party_voter_intimidation_case

Mike if you think people standing in front of a voting site with billyclubs in your hand is not imtimidating you are dead wrong. The reason their wasn't a court case the Dept. of Justice Eric Holder (the same person who didn't know where the guns went when given to the drug cartel) stopped it . The Obama's way of handling any issue he feels will hurt his image.

Okay so the court decided that this was not an instance of voter intimidation, but you have made your own (admittedly less informed as we are all less informed than those involved with the judgment of this case) decision that it was. Personally, before I made any sort of judgment in my own mind, I would want to see a picture of these black panthers standing outside a polling station with weapons. Wikipedia is great for general info, but we should be more careful and require evidence when passing judgment ourselves.

Regardless, what the toot does this have to do with photo id being required to vote?

We will all be able to find instances of different political parties or interest groups partaking in less than honorable measures to gain the kind of votes that they want. This has happened forever in every instance of politics...ever...in the world or in time. But I have yet to see a described instance that actually took place in which presenting photo id would have prevented these less than honorable measures.

We should never enact a law in order to discover a crime. Doesn't that seem absurd to anyone else? Someone in my neighborhood is probably abusing a child. This does not mean that everyone in my neighborhood should be subject to proving that they are not abusing their child through regulation. Even if it meant that child abuse would not happen in this neighborhood. Right?

And why would the guilty verdict of black panthers intimidating voters hurt Obama's image?

Mike wikipedia has no skin in this game so why do you feel what they print is not fair,or honest,

The problem with Wikipedia is that it can be edited by just about anyone.

Go back and check it out mike it wasn't edited

My audacity has never killed anyone. I was acquitted.

Amos, get over it!!!

Meanwhile, back to our regular programming..............

So you are saying that they do this in TN and FL and they also catch them, but that somehow proves that in person fraud at the polls is happening in PA, necessitating a restrictive photo ID law?

you actually think that it would be restricted to only those states?

And what about the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania? How many cases of in-person voter fraud have been identified?

According to the statements made during the case hearing, NONE.

Kathleen, can you reference the article where you got that information from? I can't believe the law would be passed to discourage poor, elderly, and young people from voting!!! That is just appalling! I would have thought it was passed to help eliminate voter fraud that was running rampant in the last election. Please post the information for us to see, especially this: "The law was passed to discourage poor, elderly, and young people and people with disabilities from voting."

@ susan, yeah!

Susan M.,
I should have made it clearer that it is my opinion that the law was passed to disenfranchise certain groups of people. However, other folks who have commented have pointed out that Mike Turzai said that the law would help Mitt Romney win the state in November. I interpret that to mean that the law was passed to manipulate the outcome of the election by preventing votes from citizens who would otherwise vote for President Obama.

Now, can you reference a source for your assertion that voter fraud was rampant in the last election? Do you have solid evidence that in-person voter fraud took place in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania during the last election?

"The law was passed to discourage poor, elderly, and young people and people with disabilities from voting."

Proof please.

"There has been no documented voter ID fraud in this Commonwealth."

That's because there is nothing in place so a person has to prove who they are.

" And we already have a way to check the identities of voters who show up at the polls: compare their signatures that day with the signatures on file with their voter registration."

I don't sign my name the way I did when I registered to vote 38 years ago and no one has ever questioned me on my signature.

Kathleen,
How would you feel if you went to the polls to vote and were told you already voted?

If there is fraud, then there will be four years before the next presidential election for all this to be worked out, hopefully in a fair and equitable fashion, amos.
I still see no reply from the GOP members who insist there was in person ID fraud at the polls in 2008, but who never said a word in 2000 or 2004....
and I'd love to see what kind of photo ID BobMcKee says he had when he was 16.

But how do we know that you are James Stiegel. You could be Juan Valdez for all we know.

Been there, done that, James Stiegel...Too many liberals decided to harass me.....

Mike, I'll provide you with my ID. Just give a time and place and we can meet up. I have nothing to hide.

But Mike proves why voter ID requirements are needed. Anyone can say they are James Stiegel, but I have the ID to prove who I am.

That's right James!

So, when I go to the polls, I can try to be Juan Valdez too! They can't ID me!!!

James Stiegel, this is from your link:
Registration
We want everyone to enjoy Patch, so you may use the Service without registration (i.e., signing up with a name, email address and password). However, in order to access some aspects of the Service, you will need to register for an account. Your account is for your sole, personal use. You may not allow others to use your account and you may not assign or otherwise transfer your account to any other person or entity. (If another person or entity wants an account, they can easily sign up themselves.) We ask that the e-mail address you provide when you register be a valid e-mail address for you. We encourage, but do not require, that the user name you provide be your real name.

NE12Ukid,

I'm just quoting a former employee.

Understood, James.
I am quoting the current terms of PATCH.

James Stiegel the terms read We encourage but do not require that the user name you provide be you real name

NE12UKID and proud american, I know how to read. I posted Andrea's comment because at one time, when I only used my first name, she provided me this response. I guess my reason for posting that comment is that I find it amusing that many of you seem so passionate about this issue, yet hide behind fake names. Are you not proud of what you believe in? Do you fear others because of your beliefs? I would never be intimidated by another because of what I believe in and you all should feel the same.

John Stuart Mill.."“A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.”

James Stiegel - I cannot use my full name because I was sent to prison by a military court for a crime I didn't commit.
I promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Dormont underground. Today, still wanted by the government, I survive as a soldier of fortune.
If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find me, maybe you can hire Mike.

Keep living in fear!

We have to register with our full names. There is no requirement we use our full names in the forums.

http://www.dos.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/voter_registration_statistics/12725

"I was trying to add that people who could not stand for long periods of time would be discouraged from voting if requiring voter ID would lengthen the lines at the polls"

You should have left that off because that is not a valid reason, it's an excuse.

Voter ID laws have next to nothing to do with voter fraud actually happening. Real voter fraud happens by buying votes or coercing people to vote for a certain candidate, tampering of votes by those in charge of an election, tampering with electronic machines, only registering voters for a certain party (such as what the Republicans were caught doing recently), etc. In-person voter fraud by pretending to be someone you're not does not happen in Pennsylvania (as in zero; we haven't had any cases of it) . Preventing a huge number of people from voting is what delegitimizes an election, not a type of voter fraud that doesn't actually occur. There's not even an argument here. The republicans put Voter ID in place to prevent democratic votes, and they know this, but they sell you a demonstrably false reasoning that people somehow buy because it sounds good.

Excellent post Tyler!

Yes, I am probably doing the same thing that you do on the weekends, while I am hard at work!

@Roy... Is a convicted felon allowed to hold a valid driver's license after his/her release from prison?

@Erin... I'm confused by Metcalfe's comment that this ruling caters to the "entitlement mentality" of our society. How is voting an entitlement? It is a right. In fact, Metcalfe's new law has created a new entitlement because every Pennsylvanian is now entitled to a free Photo ID provided by Allegheny County, PennDOT or DoS. That's a lot of tax money.

I have quite a few ideas on how to protect the vote. It would make sure no one is disenfranchised or votes twice. But it's nuanced and complicated. Maybe I can share my ideas here when things simmer down.

I am confused as well and do not have an explanation. I can say that I loathe the entire "entitlement" conversation. Feeling one is entitled to something from the government (a feeling that all of us have to some degree) does not necessarily mean that the person is lazy. And a distinction in semantics starts to really matter when politicians give a word/title a negative connotation and then irresponsibly label anything they want with it. Now Metcalfe has created a group within his supporters (so white people in suburban neighborhoods of similar incomes) that consider anyone opposed to the voter id or anyone who does not have photo id "lazy."

You should share the ideas. I am, however; hesitant to support the creation of any new law which I think is pretty much the attitude that all law creators should have with the burden of proof being on the law to prove that is necessary. I have a feeling though that we could safeguard our voting system much more easily than this whole mess...just a feeling.

His statement (in full) is quite confusing, but not surprising, after all, he is just doing his best to put forth the party line.

Here are some of my ideas of how to prevent voter fraud without (hopefully) disenfranchising legal voters…

1: Cross-check voter registration with death certificates/social security numbers to purge dead people from the rolls. There has to be an electronic database with death certificate information that could easily be processed by the county election boards.

2: Require each voter to show some sort of identification every time they vote. Before this Voter ID law, every person had to show a utility bill, photo ID or something the first time they showed up at a new polling place. Why not do that every time? I don’t think people would feel disenfranchised if they had to scrounge up a water bill with their name and address. And I would imagine it’d be difficult to fabricate that to vote for someone else.

3: Is there any way to sync up Social Security information with voter registration? Not sure how to work this, but every legal resident should have a number, so why not put that to use?

4: Dip a person’s right index finger into blue ink after they vote. That way they could never vote again in the state (or the country, for that matter) that year.

The biggest problem I see would be with absentee balloting. I would assume many caregivers help the elderly with that, so finding out who filled out the ballot would be impossible.

These are just ideas I’ve been throwing around. I think they’re fair and I think they could work. What is everyone's thoughts?

Some good ideas there IMO.
I would like to see new voter ID cards, with photo. These could be phased in, to replace the current no photo card. Register as always, but receive a photo type card. After several elections these would be in the hands of all registered voters.

Yeah, exactly. At least phase in the identification with multiple options. At least explore options. Use a freaking computer and get the dead people off of the registry.

It blows my mind that everyone is enraged about this fraud that they were not aware of before this law and have no proof of now...And nobody recognized that their neighbor knowing someone who knows someone who voted twice is a tiny, inconsequential number in comparison with the percentage of people possibly dissuaded or disenfranchised by a hastily implemented law.

“Regulating the Poor” was authored by the same set of people who actively seek to destroy the entitlement programs advocated above. These authors wanted to overload social welfare programs to their breaking points in order to affect their vision of change – an annual salary guaranteed by the federal government. How would this be achieved? That’s right, massive redistribution. Nothing serves better as an incentive to me to innovate and work hard like redistributing massive amounts of my income.

How do the authors propose this change would come about? By making millions dependent upon the government which would in turn bolster support for the Democratic Party to the point where we would essentially have one-party rule. This one-party rule could push through these changes without meaningful debate or opposition. Thanks, but no thanks.

People have had since February to get their ID...

Greg, did you read the 10 plaintiffs' stories? Some of them have been TRYING to get the necessary documents for several years.

I'm with you, Margaret, never need ID in all those places like others say. I would expect the neighbor who is a poll worker to ASK for some ID come November, she'll probably be trained to do that, even though we're KNOWN to her.
But the doctor? Never has before, why would he start now, I'm not voting at the doctors office. He's checking me, and I'm handing over money.
Interesting story about the checks, Margaret.
I rarely CASH checks, usually, like you, just deposit them into my account.
But I had a small check someone had just given to me that morning, when I saw a branch office of my bank ahead, so I asked my friend to pull in there. The teller took the check and asked me for ID. YIKES, when I checked my wallet, it was not in my pocket, I had accidentally left it at home. But she checked my account, and got the cash. I would not be as well known to this teller as to my own doctor, for sure!
But OTOH, another time a different teller refused to accept a US PASSPORT as ID.
Again, these are bank tellers, not poll workers.

Margaret last week my daugher in law sent her papers in to where you apply for a voters card and had her name changed so she can vote in next election. She got the paper online, printed it and sent in what was asked. Here is where you can download an application, and print it out. http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=1174186&mode=2

Sue, you should know by now that ne12ukid never needs to show a licence for anything as everyone in the world knows her, she went to 20 doctors in one day, had blood test, mri's, massage and never was asked for ID, Do I believe it, NO but some are so full of it too.

Sue T3:18 pm on Thursday, October 4, 2012
NE!@Ukid--you are required to show an id at the doctors if you are using insurance/medicare/medicaid .>>>

I am not on medicaid, am not on medicare, but do have my health insurance, and I do show my health insurance card, but no other ID has been requested at my doctor. Of course old shadow (aka cc) just HAS to write some ridiculously overblown nonsense as if she knows me or anything about me and my family.

Courts are the worse especially down at family division. I hear so many of my employees complain about divorces, child support and family division. When they come in and say in 2 weeks I need a few hours off in the morning to go there, I usually just schedule them off the whole day as they never get out of there. A 9 am appointment shouldn't last till 3 in the afternoon.

I agree. This did seem rushed, was there ever a specific amount of time distinguished? It many not seem very difficult to get an ID, be that Voter or State ID; for some though, it is. People who live in smaller areas don't always have the easiest way to get around, public transportation in certain areas isn't the most reliable and affording a taxi isn't the most cost effective either. People don't always have family around who can drive them places either. I don't necessarily think that the Voter ID law is a bad idea, I just don't think it's as easy to get as some people think.